Advanced followers?

topic posted Sun, August 12, 2007 - 11:47 AM by  Silvano (Syl)
There is a category of advanced follower that I have problems with. The movement leads that are being read quite well by all intermediate ++ dancers, suddenly seem to go nowhere. She will stop in the middle of a movement that normally proceeds with no problem, and I get this "I don't know what I want me to do" attitude. Now, I realize that it is much better to stop and wait for a clear lead than trying to "guess" what the leader wants. I am the first one to explain that to beginners, but I *know* that in tthis case my leads pose no problem for just about every follower I dance with. I don't consider myself "advanced" but I have been dancing in classes and milongas for a full year almost every night of the week, so I have hd enough experience and positive feedback to know that I have the basics down.

So, what is this about? The result for me is that I feel thrown back to complete beginner mode, and my dancing is just about paralized, Forget "musicality" and all the good stuff. As I try to puzzle out why I am suddenly speaking a "foreign language" , neither one of us has any fun at all, and of course I quickly get the killer "thank you".

Has anyone here had a similar experience, from either side?

-- Silvano

tango-silvano.blogspot.com/
posted by:
Silvano (Syl)
SF Bay Area
  • Re: Advanced followers?

    Sun, August 12, 2007 - 12:32 PM
    its exactly what I do when I don't feel a lead. I've had leaders call the treacher over, the teacher leads me through the combination, says "whats the problem?" and it goes right back to where it was.
    Remember rule #1
    • Re: Advanced followers?

      Sun, August 12, 2007 - 10:06 PM
      What you are saying is perfectly appropriate. especially in a class context, but even in a milonga if the lead is truly unclear, but here is my puzzlement. Let me explain it again with a cute story. I am Italian and I tried to speak exclusively Italian with my son from the time he was born (in this country). Of course he was also learning English from his mom and everyone else. One way I kept him on track was to act like I did not understand him when he spoke English with me. Well, by the time he was three he picked up on tha fact that I seemed to understand English perfectly well when his mom and everyone else spoke it... so he called my bluff.... and he was only three.

      Now I find myself in a similar situation as my son. I dance almost every night of the week and I can count at least 60 followers I dance with regularly, all of whom seem perfectly happy with my lead, or, at least, seem to read my intentiion with no problem. Then I ask one new person, and all of a sudden my lead is "unreadable". As my son noticed at three years of age ... there is something peculiar going on here.

      I am not saying that this is what *you*, Qatana, are doing.... but here is what I think is happening. I am not the "teacher level" caliber she was hoping or expecting and she lets me know it ... by making me feel like I don't know what I am doing... thus making sure I will not ask her again to dance. Unfortunately the strategy works very well, because I certainly stay clear of them after that experience, but I also don't ask other dancers after I realize that I am not at their level, unless they really make eye contact with me and seem happy to be asked to dance.

      What I am really getting at here is that it's OK to say no, and to choose to dance at whatever level you feel entitled to, but i't not OK to make someone feel like a complete fool so he won't ask you again. Fortunately I have only experienced this two or three times out of a full year of happy dancing, so I shouldn't complain, but I guess it has bothered me a lot.
      • Re: Advanced followers?

        Mon, August 13, 2007 - 8:53 AM
        No one should make anyone look like a fool on the dance floor. In milongas I give Everyone a chance, and *did* say no without guilt, and only rarely.
        What I hate are the starf*ckers (in Most tribes I will spell that out) who only show up when Forever Tango, or whatever Big show was in town and only dance with guys they knew to be "important".
        I've seen them turn down some *excellent* learders for not being good-looking , or Important enough.
        Bottom line, if you have an unpleasant experience, don't dance with that person.
        • Re: Advanced followers?

          Mon, August 13, 2007 - 9:30 AM
          you can't please every follower. I think if you are getting an average of 60 ladies happy, and only a few who are stubborn, then let it go.
          • Re: Advanced followers?

            Mon, August 13, 2007 - 11:19 AM
            as an intermediate follower, I have run into this, where I encounter leaders I can't read. for me this usually means that there is something I haven't learned yet, and the leader doesn't have enough flexibility or range to adapt the lead to my level. No judgement, but it isn't that much fun.

            I know you are working with a lot of different teachers in different settings, so probably this is not the case. but if you encounter a follower who is very adept at one narrow style or set of leads, it may not be you.

            And then some people are just jerks, leaders or followers. why dance with people who are no fun to dance with?
      • Re: Advanced followers?

        Mon, August 13, 2007 - 7:20 PM
        If it is only happening with advanced dancers, this idea might help. There is a difference between 'signaling' a movement and actually leading it. As a simple example, a lead can signal the beginning of back ochos with a rough double time side step to the left, and a not-so-experienced follow will start doing back ochos until she gets the signal ochos are ending (often by the lead walking out to cross). An advanced follow requests/demands that each fraction of a second of each ocho is lead — the shape, size speed, quality — and is also responded to by her with her input into the dynamic, thus co-constructing the movement and engaging in the non-verbal dialogue.

        I suspect that some of your movements are more signals that true leads to which intermediate dancers will respond very well, often better than true leads because signals tend to be 'louder'. In my experience some advanced follows will work with the signals and subtly show (teach) how to lead as they dance (god bless them). Others don't want to play along (god bless them as well); they demand to be lead and won't respond unless they are.

        You could also keep going back to the difficult situations; you may be missing a great learning opportunity. If nothing else, it will culture humility. I have found Tango to be great for that!

        Counter to what I wrote above, I heard something in class one day from a great Brazilian dancer, Paulo might be his name. Follows were getting frustrated with the leads as he was teaching a difficult movement. He stopped the class and stated that he danced all around the world with many kinds of follows, many of whom he did not dance with until performing; there was one thing they had in common; when he faltered, they kept their own balance and were there to support him in regaining his axis.

        My grist for the mill.
        • Re: Advanced followers?

          Tue, August 14, 2007 - 1:17 AM
          I think your comments are right on the mark, Gordon. To also answer the other comments above, I am not writing this fo the sake of complaining. My attraction to tango is the complexity and subtlelty of the dance, but I am also interested in the social structure created as a result of this. A tanguera friend of mine calls it a "meritocracy". Interstingly we go out... but she dances mainly with another partner. She will dance with me on occasion without the "movement drama" mentioned above, but it's clear that I have a ways to go before she'll dance with me regularly. Fair enough. She's upfront about it.

          I guess I feel that we should all be helping each get better and have fun. At this point I find many partners who are much greener than I am, but I try to make them feel good. If they read me wrong, I go with it and make it turn out OK. But I am slowiy becoming aware of being "watched" and "categorized"... If dancing with a beginner doesn't allow me to "show off" my skill, will the next "advanced" dancer turn me down? Probably... but so be it.
          • Re: Advanced followers?

            Tue, August 14, 2007 - 10:06 AM
            As an aside, I tried a new class last night and felt totally ignorant. It was definitely a different language and I could tell that everyone was being very patient with me because I just had no idea how to follow that lead style. aaargh! I tell myself that the take-home lesson is that I've just found a big learning opportunity. :)

            I don't know how advanced followers think about this. I have a little catalogue in my head, I remember every leader I have had a good dance with. I don't say yes or no based on how they look on the floor, because the dance they dance with me will be different than the one they dance with someone else, if they are the kind of sensitive connected leader I like.
  • Re: Advanced followers?

    Tue, August 14, 2007 - 2:07 AM
    I feel like you are taking this way too personally. If you are enjoying dancing and have had excellent experience with many dancers, let it go. I am in intermediate follower and from my experience there is a number of things that may be happening especially if the person you were dancing with is new to your community. A friend of mine made the analogy that tango is like having a conversation in a foreign language and communities all over the country/world have slightly different dialects. Leading and following styles vary and so do the expectations of your partner. Furthermore, people in the same community tend to get used to each other's moves. When I dance regularly with someone I can follow much more subtle leads because I am familiar with the movements that particular partner usually does. If the lead is trying to lead me through a complicated step sequence that I am not familiar with I personally need a stronger, more obvious lead throughout the movement and especially at the points connecting the elements of the sequence. Otherwise I do stop. If it happens again I try to trouble-shoot in order to understand what's going on. Just my 2 cents. Have fun!
    • Re: Advanced followers?

      Tue, August 14, 2007 - 11:58 AM
      Ivastar, are you saying that you have a catalog of step sequences on file in your head? Because followers are supposed to Follow, not do the steps on their own. The Best teachers only teach "step sequences" to leaders, its up to us to follow.
      If there are specific leads that there are specific responses to, thats where technique class comes in handy, but it is not good for followers to memorise a list of combinations.For example, befoe I understood the lead for a boleo, I would do ochos, which might not be what my leader was looking for but at least I don't freeeze up in panic at not knowing what comes next, and all of a sudden one night I was doing boleos like nobody's business.
  • Re: Advanced followers?

    Fri, August 17, 2007 - 10:02 AM
    <snip> and I get this "I don't know what I want me to do" attitude. <snip>

    there's no "You" and that's the problem.
    imho, all problems are rooted in communication or lack thereof.
    what I enjoy about this dance so much is that it requires folks to put aside their self-consciousness and become present in the moment, tune in and listen to another,... more like sending and receiving independent of leading and following.

    so,... how about and/also?
    your leads are clear with some and not so clear with others.
    you can have confidence in your dance ability and self-consciousness.
    there is a problem and there is no problem.
    • Re: Advanced followers?

      Sat, August 18, 2007 - 12:25 PM
      >> <snip> and I get this "I don't know what I want me to do" attitude. <snip>

      > there's no "You" and that's the problem.

      Interesting how I never noticed that I didn't put the "you" in the quote, which of course was meant to read "I don't know what *you* want me to do" . When I speak of "problems" here I am really referring to my curiosity, and to a desire to better understand what is going on with different followers, either technically or socially. I didn't make it clear in my post that my dancing is actually well accepted by most advanced followers as well. So my curiosity was triggered by the fact that with a couple of advanced followers everything came to a complete grinding halt as If I had started dancing yesterday.

      There are also some intermediate dancers with whom I don't connect well, but there is no "puzzle" there. It's just iin the nature of dancing, and I have experienced that in years of ballroom dancing as well. It's intreaguing, but it's no mistery. I know that they are trying to connnect as much as I am, but something about our "energies", or whatever, doesn't seem to work out. Some are good friends, so we keep trying...

      In all, any minor frustrations I have experienced in tango have simply encoraged me to work at it more.... and I have been having the fun of my life!!!
      • Re: Advanced followers?

        Sun, August 19, 2007 - 7:53 PM
        the comment that you made about not being able to connect with some dancers is interesting. i've had similar experiences. it's often frustrating and at best amusing when both dancers really want to connect yet the feeling isn't there, or that one feels it more/less strongly than the other.
        i've found comfort in the idea that for men, success in tango isn't about how good one looks in dancing, the breath or depth of their repertoire or anything else for that matter. it's simply if when the woman is asked to dance for a second time whether or not she says yes.

        a joy for me is the expression of pleasure on people faces as they surrender to the dance and it is especially meaningful when that expression is on my partner's face after a tanda ~ it is such a beautiful moment. i live for the feeling that creates this moment.

        i also choose my dances on this basis and it has been much more rewarding than choosing a dance based on skill.
        imho, a lot of advanced dancers are a bit snooty.
        • Re: Advanced followers?

          Tue, August 21, 2007 - 1:51 AM
          > it's simply if when the woman is asked to dance for a second time whether or not she says yes.

          .... and smiles...

          There are some kind souls out there who will not say no when asked... but one can quickly tell if she's really into the dance or she's just going through the motions. When that happens I feel like stopping right away, but I go ahead and finish the tanda...

          As you say, it feels really wonderful when she tells you or shows you that she enjoyed the dance. That should remind us to do the same!

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